Later Seleucid

Later Selucid

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Historical Overview Section

This list covers the largest of the successor kingdoms in Asia following the Alexandrian Macedonian conquest, and the sorting-out period that went on after Alexanders death between the various Early Successors.

Selucia had been at a low ebb in the mid 250's BC losing the Third Syrian War against the later Ptolemaic forces or, Ptolemy III of Egypt, and fighting a bitter civil war. This had allowed both the Parthians and Graeco-Bactrians to seced. In Asia Minor Galatians were established in Galatia and semi-independent semi-Hellenized kingdoms had sprung up with the Bithynian, Pontic, Cappadocian and Attalid Pergamene states nibbling away at the empire.

Antiochus III the Great however managed to sort much of this mess out, bringing the Parthians and Graeco-Bactrians to heel and by doing a deal with the Later Macedonian King Philip V of Macedon he ousted Ptolemy V defeating the Later Ptolemaic Empire to grab most of Syria.

But Antiochus' glory was not to last for long. Following Philip's defeat at the hands of the Late Republican Romans in 197 BC, Antiochus saw an opportunity for expansion into Greece. Encouraged by Hannibal, and making an alliance with the disgruntled Hellenistic Greek Aetolian League, Antiochus invaded Greece. Unfortunately this led to his downfall as he was defeated by the Late Republican Romans at the Battle of Thermopylae (191 BC) and Magnesia (190 BC). The resulting peace settlement forced the Seleucids to abandon all European territories and give Asia Minor north of the Taurus Mountains to the Attalid Pergamenes.

The subsequent years saw further losses of land and prestige to the Parthians, Late Republican Romans and also the rebellion of the Later Jewish in the Maccabean Revolt. By 143 BC the Maccabees were fully independent. Parthian expansion continued as well and by 139 BC the entire Iranian Plateau had been lost to Parthian control. One of the later emperors (in a time of many civil wars and assasinations) Antiochus VII restored some dignity to the empire but he too proved unequal to the Parthian threat being killed in battle with the Parthians in 129 BC, leading to the final collapse of the Seleucid hold on Babylonia. After the death of Antiochus VII, all effective Seleucid rule collapsed, as multiple claimants contested control of what was left of the Seleucid realm in almost unending civil war.

By 100 BC the Empire encompassed little more than Antioch and some Syrian cities and the Seleucids existed solely because no other nation wished to absorb them — seeing as they constituted a useful buffer between their other neighbours. In the wars in Anatolia between the Pontic Mithridates VI and Sulla the Late Republican Roman the Seleucids were largely left alone by both major combatants. In 83 BC, at the invitation of one of the factions in the interminable civil wars the Early Armenians under Tigranes invaded Syria, putting the Seleucid Empire virtually at an end.

Following the Roman general Lucullus' defeat of both the Pontic Mithridates and Early Armenian Tigranes in 69 BC, a rump Seleucid kingdom was restored under Antiochus XIII. Even now, civil wars could not be prevented, as another Seleucid, Philip II, contested rule with Antiochus. After the Roman conquest of Pontus, the Romans became increasingly alarmed at the constant source of instability in Syria under the Seleucids. Once Mithridates was defeated by Pompey in 63 BC, Pompey set about the task of remaking the Hellenistic East, by creating new client kingdoms and establishing provinces. While client nations like the Early Armenian and Later Jewish Judea were allowed to continue with some degree of autonomy under local kings, Pompey saw the Seleucids as too troublesome to continue; and doing away with both rival Seleucid princes, he made Syria into a Roman province.

Using the army in FoG

• The main difficulty with the later seleucids is figuring out what you are going to win with. They have so many cool toys. Rather than taking all of them, pick the one you want to win with and maximize it.
• If using them have your Argyraspides in BGs of 4. They are tough and maneuverable anyway and are the Romans the Romans themselves want to have as you are saving a point a base on a near-useless Skilled Sword category compared to normal Romans
• Poor LF in 8's can be great - you can get twice as many slingers for the same cost as Average light foot bow. If you do not have slingers or you used up all the available stands, then field the bow as a second choice.
• You have got mainly drilled troops and you're not going to suffer much from shooting so why bother taking an IC ?
• 3 BGs of pikes is about enough - 2 is too few
• The armoured Thorakitoi are excellent as they are armoured, but they need some help to dominate terrain.
• Thracians as help are not as good as Theurophorio as they are undrilled - small numbers of medium foot usually need to be maneuverable to be effective, so unless you can be confident of just holding ground or going forwards choose Thorakatai, then Thureophoroi and finally Thracians. Or be brave and don't take any MF and just ignore terrain!
• Take all generals as TC's though as you want to move first most of the time.
• Cataphracts are probably better than Companions. Elite is an expensive upgrade, and if your plan needs need Elites, you have the wrong plan...

Allied Contingents

• Aitolian Greek - Hellenistic Greek : Date restrictions None Book: Immortal Fire Page: 53 - Aitolian javelinmen are a sideshow - the MF Theurophoroi are where this ally is at, and can dominate any Rgo in period. 4 Lh is always useful too
• Parthian Rebels - Parthian : Date restrictions None Book: Rise of Rome Page: 56 - Up to 8 cataphracts and 24 LH is a good addition
• Elymaian : Date restrictions None Book: Rise of Rome Page: 59 - 6 Cataphracts and a chunky 18 LH is nice added to most things
• Jewish, Later : Date restrictions None Book: Rise of Rome Page: 61 - Mf Offensive spearmen are the only mandatory troops, and they are pretty useful. Some clever LH, and the option to make the MF into Pikes or crap legionaries is also quite cute

Painting and collecting the army

• The use of red as a uniform colour in the armies of many Successor forces is likely to have originated with Alexander, as the Macedonian tunic color was red, according to most accounts. That said, red wasn't the only color used for tunics. It came in a wide variety of colors. White or off-white were very common, as was light grey. The linen armor worn by phalangites would likely have been white or off-white; dyed examples weren't unknown, but they are fairly rare.

Useful Links

User-contributed links about this army:

• Ancient Warfare Magazine Online An issue covering Hellenistic Successor states
• Another painted Xyston Seleucid army from someone on the FoG Forum
• 650ap 25mm battle Reports from the PAW 2009 Tourney
• Battle Report vs LRR
• Selukid Empire Online history and coinage !
• Wikipedia entry always a good place to start
• Iran Chamber another history
• Selucid Armies a wargaming site detailing the troop types
• 10mm Selucids painted - gamers blog
• very well painted Selucids from Xyston painted by Menix
• Seleucids in 1/72 DBA Figure Gallery for this army - from Fanaticus
• Seleucid DBA Figure Gallery for this army - from Fanaticus
• Seleucids DBA Figure Gallery for this army - from Fanaticus
• Seleucids DBA Figure Gallery for this army - from Fanaticus
• Seleucids DBA Figure Gallery for this army - from Fanaticus
• Seleucids DBA Figure Gallery for this army - from Fanaticus
• Seleucids DBA Figure Gallery for this army - from Fanaticus

15mm Manufacturers supplying figures for this army

You can see some of the figures in the Ancients Photo Gallery also on this site A listing of who supplies what can also be found at my 15mm Suppliers directory Donnington and Essex make specific "Roman Argyaspid" figures, but most people use normal Romans anyway

• Essex Miniatures - large Macedonian & Selucid ranges with over 30 figure codes, plus other allied/mercenary troops
• Donnington 60+ Hellenistics, includes specific codes for different successsor armies. Donnington does very nice Later Argyraspids (aka imitation legionaries). They have all the later Seleucid troops (based on the Dapnae parade), the sculptures themselves are heavily inspired by the colour plates of the book "The Seleucid Army" by Nick Sekunda.
• Xyston Some of their macedonians are creeping up the scale, but generaly OK to mix with others
• Museum Miniatures around 30 codes listed for various Hellenistic armies, but some codes are duplicated
• Black Hat Miniatures (previously Gladiator Games) 54 codes in a range also including Greek hoplite armies
• Old Glory 15's, 9 Macedonians, 27 Successors,
• Magister Militum 19 Selucid and 9 Alexandrian codes, plus assorted allies/mercenaries
• Lancashire Games 14 Macedonian range figure codes
• Irregular Miniatures 26 figures codes for Hellenistics and Successors
• QRF Models 35 codes in their Feudal Castings HG (Hellenistic Greek) range, including some excellent personality figures
• Tin Soldier 32 suitable codes in a Hellenistic range also covering Indians & Persians
• Minifigs 45 codes in their Hellenistic & Alexandrian ranges
• East Riding Miniatures (sell some Thracians that would fit, but no hellenistics as such
• Outpost Wargame Services 13 Macedonians
• Viking Forge 17 figure codes in Hellenistic & Alexandrian ranges
• Battle Line Miniatures 43 codes in their Hellenistic range, which also covers hoplite armies
• Isarus/15mm.co.uk 26 Selucid figures
• Warmodelling/Fantassin Have announced an Alexandrian range

Tournament Performance

1 / 16 Later Seleucid Godendag 2008 Doubles (RoR) 3 / 12 Later Seleucid Attack 2008 doubles (RoR, IF) 3 / 16 Later Seleucid Godendag 2008 Doubles (RoR) 4 / 41 Later Seleucid BHGS Challenge 2008 (open) 4 / 10 Later Seleucid Luncarty Doubles 2008 (RoR) 4 / 17 Later Seleucid Warfare 2008 25mm (RoR, LT, IF) 5 / 20 Later Seleucid Warfare 2008 15mm (RoR, IF, LT) 7 / 41 Later Seleucid BHGS Challenge 2008 (open) 8 / 10 Later Seleucid BHGS Challenge 2008 25mm (open) 9 / 10 Later Seleucid BHGS Challenge 2008 25mm (open) 9 / 16 Later Seleucid Godendag 2008 Doubles (RoR) 9 / 14 Later Seleucid Roll Call 2008 25mm (open) 9 / 16 LATER SELEUCID Scottish Open 2008 (open) 10 / 12 Later Seleucid Attack 2008 doubles (RoR, IF) 10 / 41 Later Seleucid BHGS Challenge 2008 (open) 12 / 13 Later Seleucid IWF 2008 15mm (open) 12 / 20 Later Seleucid Warfare 2008 15mm (RoR, IF, LT) 12 / 17 Later Seleucid Warfare 2008 25mm (RoR, LT, IF) 14 / 16 Later Seleucid Godendag 2008 Doubles (RoR) 20 / 41 Later Seleucid BHGS Challenge 2008 (open) 21 / 62 Later Seleucid Britcon 2008 15mm (open) 22 / 27 Later Seleucid Britcon 2007 15mm (open) 23 / 41 Later Seleucid BHGS Challenge 2008 (open) 44 / 62 Later Seleucid Britcon 2008 15mm (open) 46 / 62 Later Seleucid Britcon 2008 15mm (open) 50 / 62 Later Seleucid Britcon 2008 15mm (open) 1 / 12 RR11 Later Seleucid Northern League R2 2008 (open) 6 / 12 RR11 Later Seleucid Northern League R2 2008 (open) 7 / 12 RR11 Later Seleucid Northern League R2 2008 (open) 7 / 10 Seleucid Luncarty Doubles 2008 (RoR)

Army Lists

800 AP list used at Faenza 2010

• 4 LH, L/S
• 4 LF, Sling, Poooor
• 6 LF, Bw, Poor
• 4 LH, Bw
• 8 Pike
• 8 Pike
• 8 Pike (superior)
• 8 Pike (superior)
• 6 MF Thorakitoi Offensive Spear, Armoured, Average
• 6 MF Thracians with Rhomphias
• 4 Cataphracts (superior)
• 4 Cataphracts (superior)
• 4 Elite Companion Cv lancers

800AP list as used at Warfare 2009

• 4 LH, Bw, Average
• 8 LF, Bw, Poor
• 8 Horde
• 6 LH, JLS, Poor
• 8 LF, Poor, Bow
• 8 Average Pikemen
• 8 Average Pikemen
• 8 Average Pikemen
• 4 LF, Bw, Superior Cretins
• 8 Superior Argyaspid Pikemen
• 6 LF, Slingers, Poor
• 6 Thracians with 2HCW, Average
• 4 Armoured Offensive Spear MF
• 6 Galatian HF, Superior IMpact Foot, Protected, Swordsmen
• 2 Elephants
• 4 Average Cataphtracts
• 2 Elite Cv Lancers
• 4 TCs

This was simply too big for me to beat and catch all the little units with my 13 BG Romans

800AP suggested by RBS

• 4 TC
• 2 x 4 Superior Cataphracts
• 1 x 4 LH bow
• 4 x 8 Pikes
• 2 x 4 "Roman" Argyraspids
• 1 x 6 Thorakitoi
• 1 x 6 Thracians
• 1 x 8 Poor LF archers
• 2 x 8 Poor LF slingers

900 AP list as used at Badcon 2009 doubles

• 4 LH Average JLS
• 8 Pike
• 8 Pike
• 8 Sling LF Poor
• 8 Pike
• 8 Asiatic MF Bow, Unprotected Average
• 6 LF, Bw, Average
• 6 Thracians, MF, Protected, Heavy Weapon
• 6 Thorakitoi, MF, Armoured, Long Spears, Average
• 4 LH, Bw
• 4 Superior Cataphracts
• 4 Imitation Legionaries, Superior Armoured Impact Foot Skilled Swordsmen
• 4 Imitation Legionaries, Superior Armoured Impact Foot Skilled Swordsmen
• 4 Cataphracts Superior
• 4 Xystophoroi, Armoured Elite Lancer Swordsmen Cavalry
• 4 Generals - I think 4xTC's

A solid block of pikemen, surrounded by hard imitation legionaries forms the core, and a punch of 3 units of cavalry supported by the best rought errain troops going, Thorakitoi

As used at Warfare 2008

• 4 LH, JLS, Average
• 4 LH, Bw, Sw
• 4 LH, Bw only
• 6 LF, JLS
• 10 Pike
• 6 Superior Imitation Legions, Impact Foot, Armoured
• 6 Average MF, Bw, unprotected
• 2 Elephants
• 6 Thracians, MF, Heavy Weapon, Average, Protected
• 6 Hypaspists/Thorakritoi, MF, Armoured, Offensive Spear, Average
• 4 Cataphracts, Average
• 4 Companion Lancers, Elite Armoured Cv
• 4 Gallic type Superior armoured Cv, Javelin, Sw
• 1 x IC, 2 x TC

A fairly textbook hellenistic Selucid army, with a few of all the toys the army can offer. Co-ordinating the pike, elephants and lance armed cavalry is a challenge as the combination of mounted and foot shock troops will prevent enemy shock foot from charging uncontrollably. The armoured hypaspist types are very strong in rough going, and are likley to be able to recode the highly unusual ++/-- combat advantage against most other protected/swordsmen rough terrain troops, allowing them to hold a flank against superior numbers with reasonable success.

800 Ap list with Parthians

• 3 TC
• 1x 4 Companions Cav,Armored, Elite, Drilled, Lancers, Swordmen
• 1x 6 Agema Cat,heavily armored, superior,drilled, Lancers, Swordsmen
• 1x 12 Argyspides HF, protected, superior, drilled, pikemen
• 1x 12 Phalanx HF, protected, average, drilled, pikemen
• 1x 6 Archers LF, unprotected, average, undrilled, bow
• 1x 4 Skythian Cav LH, unprotected, average, undrilled, bow, swordsmen
• 1x 6 Galatian Cav, Cav, armored, superior, undrilled, light spear, swordsmen
• Parthian Allies:
• 1 TC
• 1x 6 Cataphracts Cat,heavily armored, superior,drilled, Lancers, Swordsmen
• 3x 4 Horse Archers LH, unprotected, average, Undrilled, bow

Sample army lists for this army

• 4 TC,s
• 2 scythed chariots
• 12 HF P D avg pike (2 units)
• 12 superior pike
• 4 Cataphracts superior
• 4 Elite cavalry
• 4 LH avg javs
• 8 LF avg javs
• 6 LF avg sling
• 6 MF armored offensive spear avg
• 6 MF H/Wpn
• 4 Cav bow swds

Used by Jerome Bodelle at Briton 2008

Sample army lists for this army

• 8 Archers LF Unprotected Poor Undrilled Bow
• 8 Massed Levies Mob Unprotected Poor Undrilled
• 4 Horse Archers LH Unprotected Average Undrilled Bow
• 8 Archers LF Unprotected Poor Undrilled Bow
• 6 Civic Militia Cavalry LH Unprotected Poor Drilled Javelins Light Spear
• 8 Phalanx HF Protected Average Drilled - Pikemen Pikemen
• 4 Cretans LF Unprotected Superior Drilled Bow
• 8 Phalanx HF Protected Average Drilled - Pikemen Pikemen
• 8 Phalanx HF Protected Average Drilled - Pikemen Pikemen
• 6 Thracians MF Protected Average Undrilled - Heavy Weapon Heavy Weapon
• 6 Slingers LF Unprotected Poor Undrilled Sling
• 8 Argyraspides HF Protected Superior Drilled - Pikemen Pikemen
• 4 Thorakitai MF Armoured Average Drilled - Offensive spearmen Spearmen
• 4 Agema Ct Heavily armoured Average Drilled - Lancers Swordmen
• 2 Elephants El - Average Undrilled
• 6 Galatian Foot HF Protected Superior Undrilled - Impact Foot Swordmen
• 2 Companions Cv Armoured Elite Drilled - Lancers Swordmen
• C-in-C TC - - - - - - CinC
• 3 Sub-commander TC

Used (including against Tim) at Warfare 2009.

Name of Army / Date

• Using asterisks inthe edit mode creates a bulleted list in the actual site
• This is a lot easier to do than easier than setting up tables
• For FoG I suggest listing your army in order or march
• with troop desctiptions on each line, for example
• 4 HF Armoured Average Drilled Impact Foot Swordsmen
• 8 LG Undrilled Unarmoured Poor Bowen
• Dont forget to include your Generals !!!

Include any notes you want here

Remember to leave a line before you copy the above section as a template for your own list

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